MKII

[MattyG]

Well, HAving just downloaded it and briefley read over it, I am impressed, if not a little confused. I like the free Warcaster thing (plus free jacks) but it is now using a chart to do generic abilities (stealth, AD, CMA etc)

Mostly (from a quick glance) it looks pretty solid

[Jygg]

Some people are very keen...
(I do not vouch for the veracity of this list)

General
*Base stats have a lower limit of 1, except for def which is a lower limit of 5.
*Attack modifiers can go negative
*Advanced deployment is now only 6"
*Unless otherwise marked, a model's facing is now determined by it shoulders
*Drastic change to the point system. The common games will now be: 25point, 35 points, 50 points, 75 points, & 100 points.
*Field allowances have increased on many models
*Some units (like Knights Exemplars) have expanded into 10 man max units
*Charging now causes a boosted damage roll instead of a non boostable extra damage die.
*Free Strikes now trigger on moving out of LOS or out of melee range. No more screening out of Melee.
*Could effects are no longer their own defense modifier -- they now grant concealment.
*Invisibility has been removed from the game.
*Light Cavalry no longer ignores free strikes.
*Light Cavalry only fall back 5" instead of SPD

Advantages
*Most broadly used rules are now called advantages and will have an icon near the models def/arm. Think Monpoc for the icon design.
*Advantages are: Abomination, AD, Arc Node, CMA, CRA, Commander, Construct, Eyeless Sight, Fearless, Gunfighter, Incorporeal, Jack Marshal, Officer, Pathfinder, Standard Bearer, Stealth, Terror, Tough, Undead.
*Weapons have qualities with Icons like Advantages.
*Weapon qualities are: Buckler, Damage Type: X, Critical effect: X, Magic Weapon, Open Fist, Reach, Shield.
*Damage can now be typed. The types include: Cold, Corrosion, Electricity, & Fire
*Some models have immunity to the above damage types.

Line of Sight
*Models now have a set height based on their base size: 1.75" for small, 2" for medium, 2.75" for large.
*LoS for all attacks can be measured from any part of base to any part of base. This means that Large & Medium bases will be able to shoot around small bases.
*Models can attack vertically to their height.

Movement
*A model that forfeits its action cannot run
*A model that cannont be knocked down, but suffers a knockdown effect during its turn before its activation, must sacrifice movement or action.
*Models may charge across rough terrain, but still suffer the half movement penalty.
*Models that are placed now universally ignore free strikes.

Ranged Attacks
*Targeting a model in melee with a ranged or magic attack only grants 1 randomization, If that randomized attack misses, then the attack misses.
*Sprays attacking into melee no longer follow the randomization rules, they just miss.
*Sprays now ignore stealth as well as concealment and cover.
*Gunfighter specifically states to use the models RAT in melee combat, and you cannot mix melee with ranged attacks in the same combat.

Melee Attacks
*Combined melee attacks can be used on charge attacks, however all CMAs must use charge attacks to gain charge bonuses. In other words, the confusing rules of Waterfalling CMAs are now gone.

Warcasters
*Warcasters now cost no points.
*Warcasters have an allotment of free points to be used on their battlegroup
*Warcasters may now spend 1 focus to "Shake Off" Knocked down and Stationary
*Warcasters can now measure their CTRL area to any point. The requirement to measure to a model has been dropped.
*Epic warcasters may be taken in any size game.

Warjacks
*Warjacks in general recieved +1 MAT and +1 RAT
*Points proportionally reduced in relation to units
*Disabled has been removed. A warjack is either functional or a wreck
*Warjackss may now spend 1 focus to "Shake Off" Knocked down and Stationary
*Warjacks can now make bash attacks as free strikes
*Warjacks now have crippled systems instead of disabled. Crippled arm systems roll 1 less die on attack rolls. Crippled movement lowers your def to 7 and prevents runs and charges (you can still advance your full speed)
*Wrecks can never be repaired

Jack Marshals
*All jack marshalls now can control 2 jacks.
*Marshalling is limited to the following actions: Run, Charge, Additional attack, or boost one attack or damage roll.

Power Attacks
*The Rules specifically state that you do not apply weapon effects to power attacks unless the weapon effect states that you apply it.
*If a power attack previously had a -2 penalty, it now has no penalty.
*If a power attack previously had a -4 penalty, it now has a -2 penalty.
*Head locks now prevent a model from making special attacks & bashes, as well as not being able to use the head.
*Pushes automatically hit.
*A small base slamming a large base only slams d3 inches.
*2 Handed throws now use the throwing model's MAT when targeting another model with the throw.
*Throw deviation is now d3"
*Least disturbance is now randomized (If you throw a model directly on top of another model, the model uses the scatter template
*Models targeted by a trample attack never get to make a free strike against the trampling model

Units
*All units now have field promotion (Unit leaders are replaced after they are killed)
*Units are now divided into Grunts, Leaders, Officers, and weapons. Only Grunts can be promoted to unit leaders.
*Units can now only be purchased in either Minimum or Maximum sized units.
*Formation rules drastically changed. Now based on the Leader's CMD. A Unit can NEVER leave formation, even while moving -- you continuously check for formation. (This means to be effective, leaders will usually need to lead from the front.)
*Standard Bearers no longer grant fearless. They allow 1 reroll to CMD checks / turn.
*A unit that passes a CMD check against a Terror causing moodel, an Abomination, or a Dreadful model does not need to make a CMD check for 1 round.
*Fleeing is substantially changed. Models now flee in place of their activation. They are NOT required to move as part of the activation.

Mecenary Contracts
*Highborn Covenant: All solos may now AD
*Searforge: FA increases on all non unique models by 1.
*Searforge: All rhulic units gain Advanced Move.

[dano]

Quote:*Warcasters may now spend 1 focus to "Shake Off" Knocked down and Stationary

*Warjackss may now spend 1 focus to "Shake Off" Knocked down and Stationary

Those changes alone make MkII awesome

[Jygg]

Heh - Looks like I got my wish RE 'Lessor Destiny' for the Zealots

Dear GOD - I must finish painting up my Seether!

[dano]

If Menoth is anything to go by there are a lot of little change that will have a big impact on the game.

The whole warcaster gets a free warjack thing is interesting but it will only mean players have to field one jack - in Menoth's case all the casters get +5 or +6 points to spend on Warjacks which covers all the light jacks (except Blessing of Vengence) or a Crusader. Since most people were still fielding at least one warjack I can't see how this will force people to field more warjacks......admittedly I haven't read all the rules yet so I may be missing something here

They've also modified Vilmon (needed to change the whole running activating super ability), the Zealots themselves (now only have two prayers available), the Devout (defensive strike has been cleaned up and is a little less powerful), Knights Exemplar can now be fielded as a 10 man unit but lose their old ability getting one that I think is far more useful....that's what I've seen so far

[jaggedtoothgrin]

well, i did what i assume everyone did when they downloaded the rules, i skimmed the rulebook, then looked straight at karchev
then, i did what i assume everyone else did having read these changes to 'super karchev' which is yawned, and went back to sleep

so, he can now overboost his power field (that's perhaps useful, but having lost a point of armour in the process, i don't see his survivability increasing because of it) and his turbine gives him focus or speed (but since it happens during his activation, his control area doesnt change, he cannot allocate it to his warjacks, and 1 focus isnt enough to actually cast any spells if he's been disrupted. it is able to let him stand up or destationary though.)

however, he has lost the +1mat to his warjacks, he's lost iron curtain (which in turn means he's lost the best way he had to deal with incorporeal) and he's gotten a new spell instead. the spell is ok, but its not nearly as interesting as iron curtain was. sidearms is a better spell, but since it's still a self upkeep, he still loses tow if he does it.

he's gained a few things from the warjack damage rules (which is to say, he is still more vulnerable than any other warcaster because of them, but atleast he cannot be knocked down to move1 or rip his arms off anymore.) and the ability to stand up for a focus is nice, but that's about it.

overall, i was fairly underwhelmed really.

then i took a look at the old witch. her teleport spell is now just eKaya's. and augury no longer ignores stealth. pretty much stops all my tricks from working anymore. bah

it saddens me that both my favourite casters have lost their most interesting spells.

santa no longer gives any actual benefit to other greylords at all (beyond being an extra ice cage)
zerkova no longer gives any actual benefit to other greylords at all
greylords are now FA:3

drakhuns no longer get multiple attacks
eVlad's feat no longer grants additional attacks or damage dice
kossites can no longer ambush on turn 1
sorscha windrush makes her def 18, which is the same as vlad with BoK up
spriggans lose their coolest grenades, their cool tramplecharge, and still cost about the same (relative to other warjacks)

ashlynn is full of all her old win, and gets 7 free warjack points.
piper no longer increases movement
the croes cuttthroats card is utterly FUBARed
alexia is not much good anymore, having lost command undead, only getting risen if she survives the turn, and making her friendly risen unit untargetable by spells (meaning they will remain bollocks) risen also lose the ability to mob people. yay for a $160 unit becoming crap. wtg PP. :/
aiyana and holt have been pretty seriously nerfed too. they now get stealth, instead of invisibility, harm is now +2 instead of additional dice, they lose their antimagic field. holt can only shoot one glob of acid out of the air per turn.

denny still autowins against karchev
skarre now needs LoS for sac-strike
eskarre no longer makes satyxis particularly awesome. that responsibility has fallen largely upon the sea witch UA
goreshade has no special rules whatsoever
goreshade's feat no longer bothers with that pesky 'not make bane thralls' option
deathwalker starts with goreshade, it is assumed that he killed someone at some point in the hundreds of years he's been unalive before now
coven are less cool now, stygian abyss doesnt cause blindness, just has the same effect as denny stabbing them, perfect conjunction reduces spell cost by 1 instead of boosting
egoreshade is so boring that all egoreshades model have now become regular goreshade models.
leviathans fists now lack all special rules, harrower guns no longer get awesome when using souls, souls are just boosts
deathjacks and seethers no longer eat their warcasters
bile thralls cost more
bane knights are still really good, vengeance allows EVERY model still alive to make a move and attack if the enemy killed a model last turn. you do only get 1 3"move+attack no matter how many knights you kill though.
cephalyx have lost all their cool stuff.

so, overall, i'm pretty underwhelmed by everything my factions have got (which is to say, most of my favourite parts have stopped working entirely, or have begun working at reduced efficiency) this is beginning to feel a lot like legends. let's go see what cygnar and menoth have.

[Jygg]

...You are a 'glass 1/2 empty' kind of guy.

[jaggedtoothgrin]

maybe. its hard not to view the glass as half empty when it was only 1/4 empty a few hours ago.

[Jygg]

You want some awesome? Take a closer look at what the Seether gained. Alternatively, start a list of your unpainted Khador, Cryx and Mercs because I am happy to take them off your hands.

As for Kharchev - Fissure as a Ranged with RAT 5, it is harder to hit with. However, the attack rolls can now be boosted for when you really need to knockdown a model or 2 so your battlegroup can wail on them.

Arcantrik Turbine is a definite improvement. +2" of movement OR 6 focus for that turn instead of 5. That is a bonus. Loss of 1pt of ARM is more than made up for by gaining the ability to overboost his field.

POW for the open fist makes for an improvement.

The loss of Iron Curtain does hurt.

Ground Zero is great against a swarm of infantry. 5" AOE auto hit Pow 13. Better than Rain of Death past base to base, and anything that survives gets pushed. That can be used tactically I am sure.

Overall, not what I expected, but not bad.

[jaggedtoothgrin]

ground zero has some tactical advantages, except that to push you need to damage, which means he's spending 1 point to upkeep tow (assuming he didnt want to be immune to knockdown the turn before) and then 4 points on getting ground zero to push a single warjack forwards. it has tactical uses, but overall i consider it a inferior spell to iron curtain, which was awesome and interesting, had offensive and defensive uses, and encouraged clever thinking in its application.
any infantry that swarms karchev is liable to be trampled over anyway and under the old rules, iron curtain would kill more than twice that many for less focus, so ground zero is not so good for its cost. its far from a useless spell, but compared to iron curtain, its pretty arse.

seethers are i think somewhat absurd. mat8?wtf. but i don't own any seethers. i own slayers and leviathans, both of which were sorta shortchanged. the slayers power increase and points decrease makes them step up a bit, but as you say, look at the seether. the leviathan is quite a disappointment considering that it took fifty years to assemble.

i may or may not take you up on that offer, but certainly my biggest annoyance is that so many things i liked about models (such as the old witch telescrag) no longer work. which means that the models i liked enough to have painted already are the ones that are now disappointing me in their reduced capacity.

[Jygg]

I am happy with what Slayers can do for the cost. Especially a pair of them for only 12pts. I am also very happy with Machine Wraiths.

I also think you are making 1 big mistake - you are comparing models to their mk1 counterparts as opposed to considering them in the context of their mk2 opponents and the new rules. Apples/oranges. Play 1st, whine later.

As for whether its interesting or not. I, for one, never found playing the rules and arguing over timing to be interesting.

[jaggedtoothgrin]

part 2:

Kreoss, still as good as before. eKreoss seems to be even better than before.
sevvy is definitely better than before. convert as an action? boohiss.
feora is still great. efeora is fantastically great. fire no longer expires while in her control area? ouch.
amon seems to have been improved a bit. he's lost his trip attack, but how often did people use that one anyway? all i ever saw was crack the whip (which is to say, now 'smite') and he has groundwork and hex hammer now.
reznik gets engine of destruction now? i take it back, feora is a chump. reznik is the new feora.
devouts took a much needed hit to their sillyrules, but they're still great stats and so cheap that it hardly matters
i'm perhaps unclear how a paladin of the wall can have as high a defence as a windrushed sorscha (and arm20 to boot) and now vilmon gives them impervious? wtf? so he can no longer run and do it, that was a truly stupid ruling anyway, combining impervious and cornerstone more than makes up for that, and giving it to all the other paladins. not cool.
the covenant is much better, especially with eFeora
zealots+mb took a slight hit, this is good.
deliverers get to make big AOEs instead of little ones if they want
KE took a not quite hit, because they're a 10 strong weaponmaster unit, and their bond is still good, it just doesnt pile up like it used to. i'm not sure if that's a hit or an improvement
cleansers no longer explode
daughters lose their assassinationy stuff
KEE have their dying shenanigans capped at a more sane level. i think they're better for their price than regular exemplar are.
idrians lose their zany intercept bollocks. this is good

both haleys still seem as good (which is to say, very)
snipe is now better value for its cost, but cant be boosted to 6" anymore
caine's teleport has taken a hit. ecaine seems to be just as badass as before
enemo's awesome has slightly time paradoxed back onto regular nemo, but enemo is still supergood.
kraye's feat is still essentially 'karchevs feat but much better' though the fact that light cav no longer ignores freestrikes helps ease the pain just a little. i am still filled with hate at the model. and oh look, he still gets more focus than karchev, and the same amount of free warjack.
darius cannot heal completely wrecked jacks, and it appears that he only starts with one halfjack, although thats not clear
chargers got a bit of a buff, hunters no longer get a boiler move. centurion shields took a hit, require an action to use
journeyman lose a spell, but it isnt arcane shield, so not much change there.
squire is still broken.
swordknights are very very cheap
rangers lost their interesting rules

[Jygg]

I own 4 Stalkers - Yay!
Seawitch gives the SRaiders Stealth - Yay!

[jaggedtoothgrin]

slayers are indeed good, until you compare them to seethers, then they're pretty lacklustre. i admit that slayers continue to make my juggernaut jealous, they did it when they were more expensive, now they're less, its even more pronounced. but my juggernaut has been a destroyer for some time now, so really, it doesnt help much. certainly slayers are better than berserkers though. sea witches give satyxis some things that help make up for eskarres loss of her awesome elite cadre, but it only applies to half my satyxis now, not all of them. i'm not sure how i feel about the cryx stuff so much, but i know what i feel about cygnar and menoth...

and i reject the notion that PP have been pushing lately, that comparing a mk2 model to its mk1 counterpart is pointless. beyond the simple expectations gathered from having played a model with one set of rules, the simple fact is that having paid money for the mk1 version and the rules under which it worked, i have every right to feel upset, disappointed, or cheated, if that model is suddenly crap in mk2.

now, i realise that improvements have been made. the rules are clearer and for the most part, cleaner. certain particularly potent combinations have been removed. (for instance, i am pleased that the dreaded unnatural disaster+alexia thing is dealt with. though i think that it was dealt with enough by the pretty thorough crotchpunching alexia received, so losing the spell entirely means one of the more interesting parts of eButcher is gone too. that being said, it was time consuming even before risen were involved) and i realise that elements of my factions have infact improved in efficiency (notably, seethers, which were always pretty good, if flighty. are now offthehook insane) however, the elements to the faction that appealed to me in the first place, that inspired me to purchase these expensive little metal mans, have fairly systematically been ignored, reduced in power, or outright removed. as such, i shall maintain my bitterness a bit thankyouverymuch, i have purchased that right

having now skim-read everything, i'm not that enthused. many of the things i dislike in legends remain in full or nearly full force, while much of what i did like pre-legends have gone, or been otherwise made much less prevalent. a lot of what i've seen feels like 'streamlining' which can mean good things, or bad things. if it means things like timing rules now are clear, that's good.if it means that rules are homogenised, and complicated and interesting rules are removed, for the sake of a faster game, then that's not. 40k did it between 2nd and 3rd ed. my opinions on that are i believe well documented (and if not, i'm sure you can guess what they were)
a lot of the rules which i thought were interesting, or had interesting tactical applications have gone. i'm not pleased by that. we'll see how things go, but at the moment, i am seeing more disappointments caused than solved by mark 2. this doesn't bode well for legion.

now, don't confuse me here, i am not completely dissatisfied by these rules, but i do feel that in a lot of places it has stepped away from what brought me into this game in the first place. i'm not going to walk away without trying it out, but unless through more thorough reading, or play, my initial opinions are proven wrong, it's only a matter of time. i certainly don't see myself painting or purchasing anything new in the near future. the good news there is you probably wont have to face my horrifying incubi lists.

[dano]

Quote:and i reject the notion that PP have been pushing lately, that comparing a mk2 model to its mk1 counterpart is pointless. beyond the simple expectations gathered from having played a model with one set of rules, the simple fact is that having paid money for the mk1 version and the rules under which it worked, i have every right to feel upset, disappointed, or cheated, if that model is suddenly crap in mk2.

So you reject the notion that trying to compare Mk2 to Mk1 is pointless because you feel you've wasted money? Simple solution - don't play Mk 2. Keep playing Mk 1.